Episode 90: Giselle Crout & Brent Lee

The COO Roundtable with Matt Sonnen Episode 90 – Giselle Crout & Brent Lee 00:00:05 Luke Sonnen: Hi, I’m Luke Sonnen. Welcome to The COO Roundtable, powered by Coldstream Wealth Management. Here's your host, Matt Sonnen. 00:00:15 Matt Sonnen: Welcome, everyone, to Episode 90 – nine, zero. Today, we're digging into that stretch of growth that almost every RIA eventually hits, somewhere around $1 billion in AUM, multiple office locations, and a headcount that's really outgrown the days when everything can live in employees’ heads. My two guests today are both living through that exact stretch right now, and as it turns out, they already know each other really well, so we're going to dig right in. Giselle Crout joins us from Corvus Wealth Advisors, headquartered in beautiful San Luis Obispo, California, and they have a second office location 22 miles north in Templeton, California. And as an aside, I'll say, the greatest weekend of my entire life was - it turned into seven days - at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. I went to visit one weekend during my freshman year of college. I was at UC Santa Barbara and went up to visit some friends and was supposed to be there for two days and wound up staying for seven. So I love San Luis Obispo. Giselle is the firm COO, and she'll go through the details of Corvus in just a bit. But the firm manages right around $1 billion of assets and has approximately 20 employees. So welcome to the podcast, Giselle. 00:01:31 Giselle Crout: Thank you so much. I'm so glad. So glad to be here and glad you enjoyed your visit to San Luis Obispo. 00:01:37 Matt Sonnen: Yes. And joining Giselle is Brent Lee, Partner and COO at Dodds Wealth, with offices in Denver and Colorado Springs. I actually had done a small consulting engagement with Dodds Wealth many years ago. The founder, Andrew Dodds; he would call me every once in a while to talk through RIA technology systems and trying to piece together which systems were going to integrate best with other pieces of the tech stack. The firm is very tech-focused, which we're going to talk about today. Brent joined Dodds after my engagement had ended, so Brent and I just recently met. The firm is affiliated with LPL. They manage around $800 million and have 15 employees. Welcome to The COO Roundtable, Brent. 00:02:24 Brent Lee: Thank you Matt. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us. 00:02:27 Matt Sonnen: Well, Giselle, tell us, I gave a little bit of a background, but give us some more details on Corvus Wealth Advisors. 00:02:33 Giselle Crout: Absolutely. Corvus Wealth Advisors is an independent, locally owned RIA on California's Central Coast, as you mentioned. We were founded in 2021 – a merger of two smaller firms. And, as you mentioned, we have about $1 billion in AUM, just a little bit over, and 20 employees. We actually have two complementary businesses. We have kind of a wealth management, a comprehensive wealth management and financial planning for families and individuals, as well as investment management for foundations, nonprofits, and endowments. And then on the other side of our house, we have a significant employer retirement plan practice, where we provide plan sponsors with 401(k), 403(b), or 457, depending on what kind of business it is, or entity. And over the years, over the last five years, growth has primarily come through relationships, being with our clients, and professional referrals. And basically, we have really gone through quite a period of growth in these last five years, and we're really focused on trying to build a firm that lasts. That's, for us, the most important piece. We grew from a smaller, single office, and our organization has really had to shift from building around individuals and informal knowledge to building systems, leaders, and consistency across two locations, which does add a little bit of complexity. And one of the other pieces that's really important to us is obviously not losing the culture. And that is one of our most, I guess, sacred pieces. We want to stay true to who Corvus is. And so that's part of what we're trying to do when we build that, that vision and that organization that lasts and have it be true to Corvus. 00:04:37 Matt Sonnen: Great. Well, Brent, give us the rundown on Dodds wealth. 00:04:41 Brent Lee: Yeah, I like everything that Giselle said, so we can just repeat that. Dodds wealth was founded in 1991, so we've just been around for 35 years now and currently, like Matt said, around $800 million, and we typically have really doubled in size every 5 or 6 years, which is - we want to keep that goal going. So we started, even six years ago, probably at around eight employees, and now we're at 15 and hiring two more. So we like that that growth that we're having right now and hopefully we can keep that up, you know, moving forward. Our ideal client really comes in two categories, I would say. Number one is our small business owner. We really feel like we can provide them a lot of help, and we try to really benefit from that holistic approach. You know: tax work, estate planning. And on the tax side, we can help them on the business side and personal side. So they get a lot of benefit from our firm doing that kind of grouped group part of it. But our other one, you know, we really have a lot of good luck with just those simple savers that just haven't had enough kind of pen to paper on, “Am I ready for retirement?” A lot of people are good at saving and they just don't know where they're at, so with financial planning and helping on them on the tax situation, you can really actually hone in and say you're good to go on retirement, or hey, this is what we need to do to get you in a good retirement place. And just that change to know that we have their back or are running scenarios behind the scenes, and that they can feel comfortable with what they've done through their life - saving a 401(k) - that they're ready for retirement. That's really our two kind of niche markets, I would say. But just like Giselle at Corvus, our growth of the last decade or so has been all referral-based. We have not really done any marketing besides kind of just having our website and being on the Forbes list. We really just focus on client service and that has really done well for us. But in the interim with technology and AI, we really want to start looking at how can we market and get those small business owners and, and look ahead and say, what can we do to pursue both those avenues? So that's really what our goal is moving forward is to actually start, you know, going after those small business owners and how much benefit we can provide for them. 00:06:58 Matt Sonnen: Fantastic. Well, Brent, I mentioned that you had joined Dodds after I had worked with Andrew. Tell us about your career path, what you were doing before joining Dodds, and how you got to the role of COO? 00:07:11 Brent Lee: Yeah. So I actually started at a smaller custodian here in downtown Denver that really focused on alternative assets and not many other common stocks, but we could hold a lot of alternative assets. And we actually provided Orion, which is a technology system to smaller RIAs that needed a technology platform for themselves and clients. So, there was about 170 RIAs that were under that custodial platform. And I started out as a relationship manager there. So I actually - a great way to start, in my opinion. I learned so much. I was the helper for all those firms. So if they needed help on Orion Billing, Orion Trading, you know, reporting - anything that Orion had, which is a majority of items - they would call us for training on their staff help if they're having an issue, even help getting trades pushed through if they were having some errors there. So that - I can be thankful enough for that role because that helped me, you know, not only learn all those items, billing on the RIA side, trading, but when you work with 150 different firms or so, you learn there's a lot of different ways to do the same thing. And you know, none of them are wrong; it's just different ways to look at it. And it was nice to see that and help on all different fronts. And while I was working out there, I was promoted to a business analyst role, where I actually started helping Orion and our custodian build software to help the advisor and their trouble points. We built a new trading system, new move money tool, and at that time, a recruiter reached out to me that was working with Dodds Wealth, and they wanted someone that had Orion experience, and kind of the rest is history. I had some good conversations with Michael Dodds, one of the owners here, and it felt like the right step. And here I am, but – I started in the middle of Covid, so that was a little funny of a start. When you start managing people as the operations manager, which was the first of that role, and met the owners in a Safeway parking lot with masks and gloves, I think the second week into Covid or something like that? So, that was interesting. And not meeting your coworkers for - you know, what you thought was going to be two weeks turned into months. But other than that, it's been tremendous. And now from working with 170 advisory firms down to one, I can - I can focus on one firm, which has been a delight. 00:09:31 Matt Sonnen: Yeah. Fantastic. Well, tell us about your career journey leading up to being named COO at Corvus in 2024? I think it was. 00:09:41 Giselle Crout: Yeah, absolutely. I'm a little envious of Brent's background. I actually joined from outside of the wealth management industry. I've always been in operations, but not in financial services. So, if I look back, though, I can see how every step I've taken has really kind of prepared me for what I'm doing today, even if I didn't realize it at the time. I actually have an English literature degree because I love stories, and that will kind of come through a little later, I think, as well. And actually why I ended up here. But I worked for a private education company for about 17 years and worked my way up from, you know, basically an assistant to the Director of Learning Center Operations for them over the years, and worked on a lot of different initiatives: managed leasing, technology needs, you know, all of the typical operations pieces. And I learned from a lot of really amazing, remarkable women. As it turns out, it was an education company, and that's still predominantly women-focused or a lot of women in that field, but had a lot of really great mentors in operations and in other arenas that really helped shape me. And one of them was very audacious and bold, where I can be a little bit more conservative in my approaches to things. And she passed away in 2016, very young, and I kind of took a little look around and I thought, gosh, I've been doing this for a long time and maybe playing it a little safe. And so I decided I wanted to do something different, and I wasn't looking to leave operations. I was just looking for a little bit of a different mission. And so I connected through a friend with Rob Garcia, our CEO, and - he was the CEO of the previous firm. I mentioned that we were founded through a merger, so I actually joined him at the previous firm in 2017 and became a partner in 2022 after we had merged into Corvus. But really what drew me in was a little bit of Rob and his story and then getting to hear stories of our clients because, as I mentioned, I've always been really fascinated by stories and human stories behind the work. So whatever that was, that drew me in and that's how I ended up here. 00:12:21 Matt Sonnen: I love it. That's always my favorite question to ask our guests is how they zigged and zagged their way to where they are today. So thank you both. Both of you have tremendous backgrounds. Well, I mentioned at the top you both know each other. Most of the time, our guests don't know each other before I've paired them together on this podcast. But you two know each other well. You're both participants in a three-person study group along with Chris Pelch. Chris is a good friend of mine, and he was a guest on episode 47, which was almost four years ago on the podcast. But Brent, tell us about the group and how it was formed. 00:12:58 Brent Lee: Yeah, it started out as a, you know, DFA Dimensional Fund study group with more than three firms, and it was just about kind of key metrics, what RIAs should be looking at - and they met, I believe, monthly as well, and just really went over how, you know, how you could be better as an RIA. And over time it was that, you know, Vance and Corvus, so, you know, Giselle and Chris Pelch - we were showing up and a lot of other firms maybe would miss a lot. And it was hard to stay aligned on KPIs, you know, measuring what we were trying to bring for that month. So we ended up just, you know, kind of breaking off there and not really sticking specifically to the DFA side either. But just really - I respect Giselle and Chris tremendously. And their CEOs join as well. And I think it was just at the beginning, Giselle, correct me if I'm wrong - that just the CEOs were meeting. But then they thought, hey, we're talking about all this operational stuff and we want to take action on it. We get excited after meeting. We need to bring our operations people in. That's how it ended up Chris, Giselle, and I got added to the group over time. We're like, oh yeah, we want to hear about it too. So, long story short, you know, the biggest thing of the group, we still meet - the three firms that we're discussing meet monthly. We have an off-site retreat annually as well. And we have a big agenda that we go through. And, you know, it's really impactful to find other firms that are doing well. We respect Giselle’s and Chris’s company tremendously, and it's just nice to bounce ideas off each other. There might be something Michael at Dodds and I are trying to discover or research, but Giselle and Rob may have already done that, or Chris at Vance has already done that. So it's nice to really challenge ourselves. Sometimes we tell each other the honest truth, and it helps us get through some blocks that we have, maybe in our business. So that is how it's going and still going strong today. 00:14:57 Matt Sonnen: That's great. Well, Giselle, I've always said that it's often lonely being an RIA, but it's even lonelier being an operations professional at an RIA. So tell us how valuable this group has been for you and your career development. 00:15:13 Giselle Crout: Yeah, it's absolutely lonely, for sure. You don't have another operations person right down the hall that you can usually pop in and run an idea past. But I think one of the things that I value most about our study group is that it's not really just about sharing answers; it's also about helping one another ask better questions. And I have to say, Brent and Chris and our CEOs – they - the trust that we have built over the last several years have really created a rare combination of, I feel like, strategic and operational perspectives. We push back and we don't just share, like polished success stories, which I think is the best part about it. And, we come from a different perspective and really ask some of those questions. And again I'm going to say push back again. Why are you thinking about it this way? How are you thinking about it? What are the assumptions you don't even realize you're making? Those kind of conversations really make the group so valuable to us. And I think that many of Corvus’s current initiatives that we're working on - if I think about some of our top ones for this year - have been influenced by these conversations, not because we've necessarily copied what they've done, but they just helped us think more intentionally about what was right for Corvus. And so I think when we can talk together in that kind of environment with trust, we can really get at the heart of an issue. And I think it's also very valuable to understand: why have we not solved this? Have you solved this? Oh, you haven't solved this as well. What's the next useful step? So I think this kind of group is just really critical for our success, and a big part of why we've had some of the growth that we've had over the last couple of years. 00:17:14 Matt Sonnen: Yeah. It's so valuable to not only hear from another firm - how did you solve this? But it's just as valuable, if not more, to - oh, you're struggling with that too? Okay, we're not alone. I don't feel so bad anymore. 00:17:27 Brent Lee: We say that a lot, don't we, Giselle? 00:17:28 Giselle Crout: Absolutely! 00:17:31 Matt Sonnen: Well that's great. Well, both of your firms are at that critical point of growth in the business’s lifecycle that I mentioned in the intro, right around a billion of AUM, between 15 and 20 employees, multiple office locations. This is the point where things really start to get hard. In the past, you had fewer employees, every process lived in everyone's head. Back when there was only one office location, so everyone was in a physical space together, I'm sure things felt easier than they do today for both of you. So, Giselle, I'll go to you first. What are some of the things, from a process perspective that you've had to change as the firm has continued to grow? 00:18:16 Giselle Crout: Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing we've realized is that organizations are not - they're not static. They're living things. So Corvus today is not the same organization it was three years ago, five years ago. And I really hope it's not going to be the same organization in the next three years. So the fundamental shift for us, I think, has been around intentionality, not really just doing the same thing we've always done because that's the way we've always done it. I kind of approach our operations as never done. In fact, I tell new hires that there are places where you can go where every SOP is written down and it will not change, and it's in a binder somewhere or maybe online. That is not this place. That does not mean that we don't have SOPs. It just means that we're constantly iterating and we're constantly driving towards a better outcome. And so the goal is not for us to become more corporate; it's to add clarity, consistency and resilience. So we try to build for that constantly. And I think one of the things that's really helpful with that is fresh eyes. Man, when we get either interns or new hires and new perspectives, multiple locations - that has a really amazing way of kind of opening things up - again, kind of making you challenge some assumptions. Why did we do it this way? What are we trying to solve? So, I think again, really starting with intentionality for me has been the biggest shift. I - you know, we we've had meetings that we've been doing for years and all of a sudden we're sitting in a meeting and I'm sitting here going, why doesn't this feel productive anymore? What's going on? Why does this change? And really, it's a matter of the meeting needed to change, the focus, the objective needed to change because it didn't work for who we were anymore. So that's been kind of my biggest shift towards that is really staying curious about our organization and really understanding what it needs then. 00:20:34 Matt Sonnen: I love it. That's great. Well, Brent, I'll ask you the same question. What deliberate changes have you had to make to your processes to accommodate and support the growth that you guys have undergone? 00:20:47 Brent Lee: Yeah, I would say the biggest strategic side that we made for growth was on the advisor side. We're really ramping up our internship program and trying to create a consistent pipeline of young advisors, kind of developing under our lead advisor, senior advisors. That succession planning is critical for us regardless of how, kind of, AI develops. Because at the end of the day, this is a people business. You know, money is emotional and personal, and they're going to want to talk to people about it. So regardless of how efficient operationally we can be using technology, we're always going to need those people in those seats to have tough conversations with clients, help them through anything that they're going through, and comfort them when they need it. So that's been our biggest lift in the last couple of years on the internship program. I think we'll talk down the road on that. But on the operations side, we are leaning more into AI and just how we can be more productive on the kind of current systems that we're on and how we can not only face the new technology together, but really face on everything that's coming on with the AI and really go into the automation that the vendors that are saying, we can do it all, and try to sift through what vendors can actually do it all. So we're taking time to look at all those technologies. I would say our next step in scaling is trying to look at new CRM systems. Currently we're on Redtail and we really just want to make sure we're being deliberate about that decision that we move to. We're looking at a CRM system called Nevis, which is an AI-centric CRM system, so you’ll be able to search, you know, which clients had a, you know, worry of the market two years ago, and it would pull us a list of the clients we may need to reach out to. So, we're still looking at that, but we're really just trying to ask the broader question, you know: what can we maximize our team's leverage on technology and where do we need to make the jump? Because we definitely don't want to jump two CRM systems in two years. So we're really just trying to sit back, even though we want to make that growth and scaling process - like, hey, is this the right step to do? You know, we don't want to step too early and have to change CRM systems twice. I don't think anybody wants to do that. 00:23:06 Matt Sonnen: Yeah. I love you mentioned in there that you're trying to just get the systems you currently have to work better, or you're figuring out better processes. And my - during my consulting days, that was the take I always had. I would - people would call me, RIAs would call me and say, hey, we need help ripping out this system and putting in a new one. And I would say, well, maybe we're going to do that, but let's not - that's the most drastic solution here. Let's just see if we can get the system you have in place today to work better for you. I love that you're taking that approach. That's great. So, you mentioned advisors. That last question kind of addressed the enterprise level changes that you've had to make. So we'll dig into the advisor level now. I want to ask how you both are tracking capacity at the advisory team level. So, every firm wrestles with this same question. How many clients can one advisory team handle before it's maxed out? And some firms go and hire more advisors to take relationships off of the plate of some of their current advisors. Others centralize the administrative work that seems to bog advisors down. So, Giselle, what are some of the things you've incorporated at Corvus Wealth to help with advisor capacity? 00:24:25 Giselle Crout: Oh man, Matt, I wish I could tell you we had solved advisor capacity, but I actually don't think this is something that you solve once. I think it is something you continually manage. And so we've used all the standard tools, you know, we've segmented our clients, we've standardized deliverables, we have strong advisory teams. We work in a team setup. So we pull, again, those operational pieces and some of the day-to-day stuff off the advisors, clearer roles, all those types of things. But I think the thing that we've come to realize is that no single metric captures capacity, because client needs vary so dramatically and can change at any time. You know, you can have that 10-, 15-year client that's running really well. And then there can be a life change. There can be a divorce, there can be an inheritance, there can be a business sale that really changes what they need. And so, this is something we wrestle with. I think the best story about this was my CEO and I got together and we were going to crack this. We were going to solve this problem. So we spent a lot of time working on a really elaborate capacity rating model with numerous variables, rating so many different pieces across our clients. And when it was complete, you know, you have this moment and you're like: this is it. I've solved it, I've cracked the code. And we took a step back and we literally were like: this is completely unusable. Like, we crumpled up the paper, metaphorically, and threw it away. Because people aren't spreadsheets. And complexity can create the illusion of precision without producing a workable answer. And that is 100% what we had created. So for us, the answer is: we use the metrics, we look at the numbers, but we check in with our team time and time again. And so, again, it's a conversation. Capacity to me is not a formula. It's a conversation we have with our team time and time again. And it's different by advisor. 00:27:01 Matt Sonnen: Yeah, I love that you say it's hard to solve. It cracks me up that every AI tool right now for our industry - every one of them says: we're solving, we're giving advisors eight hours per week back, which is skeptical right there. But then the part that really makes me laugh - and every one of those advisors is successfully using those eight free hours for successful business development efforts. And they've grown more in the last six months since they've implemented our tool than they ever have in their entire careers. And it's like, I don't think - I don't believe either one of those, you know, the two halves of that story - that you are giving them the eight hours and that they're successfully going and finding more clients with the extra eight hours you've given them. 00:27:48 Giselle Crout: The miracle. 00:27:49 Matt Sonnen: It's a miracle. Exactly. So, Brent, what types of tasks have you centralized versus what tasks have you kept in the hands of the advisory teams? 00:28:00 Brent Lee: Yeah, so we were on the - we actually talked about with our group - with Giselle and Chris - that it is hard to measure what a good advisor capacity is and what we can centralize, what we can help get off their plate. So the only thing I would add to that is, you know, we tried to look at benchmarks - publics like Schwab and TD Ameritrade, Kitces - just trying to see what the benchmark per household was and benchmark per client for advisor. So we tried to see what that looked like and just like Giselle said, it's hard, because clients are different and there's a lot of variables to try to find that volume. Even if you're trying to compare against the world out there where you can line up. But on centralization, we've really tried to do two things. We centralized operations entirely, and we really focus on that team environment here at Dodd. So centralization of operations, all reports generation for client meetings, move money, transfers, new accounts - that's all done by our operations team for the advisors. So the advisors submit us tasks and the rest is history from their side. They don't need to check in on it. We take it from an operations standpoint and we take it to the finish line. So that's helped them kind of alleviate some of that administrative work that we are getting off their plate, and they can focus on the client conversation. But like I alluded to, the bigger philosophy that we have is just that team approach. Everything we do, whether it's account opening, investment trading, philosophy, you know, changing the bonds that's going to be firm-wide. You know, every advisor we meet together on an investment committee and we decide what changes we're going to do as Dodds Wealth. And that really does help us not only centralize tasks but centralize our view and what's going to be getting done. We're not going to be zigzagging our operations team saying, oh, one advisor likes it this way; we need separate models for this advisor. We're going to keep that team-based approach and those views all symmetrical from our side. And that allows our operations to do what we do best. We're good doers, so we get the stuff done and allows our advisors to really focus on the higher-level conversations and higher-level analysis. 00:30:12 Matt Sonnen: Great. Well, Brent, you mentioned Orion earlier. Both of your firms leverage Orion, and they've had an interesting path. The firm started out making its value proposition for RIAs as - we're open architecture; our platform integrates with all kinds of outside systems to allow you to build a best-of-breed technology stack. And that really was their sales pitch. But then Orion went on a buying spree and they bought a rebalancer, they bought a CRM. They've continued to bolt on solutions to their value proposition. So their value proposition has really changed to - we're an all-in-one solution rather than that best-of-breed. So we're an all-in-one solution. We make it easy for you. You only need Orion, and all of your major business functions are taken care of under one technology logo. So, Brent, I mentioned that your firm is very tech-focused. How has your firm thought about the all-in-one versus best-of-breed approach when designing your tech stack? 00:31:17 Brent Lee: Yeah, it's funny you bring up Orion. I mean they're a great example. Every year, I try to give them feedback: hey, please stop buying more technology. Just focus on what you guys are doing and then maybe build that a little bit and then they're like, nope, we bought something else and we're not going to work on what we just bought last year. I'm like, oh darn it. So yeah, not everything is an all-in-one solution. I know Orion tries to do that and they're a great example. You know they acquired Redtail - you know, time flies - I want to say two years ago now. And it's just a lighter version of Salesforce, if people don't know what Redtail kind of serves as, but it does the job. And the way we look at technology, just as you mentioned, Matt, earlier, it's the same philosophy we have. We want to push technology to the limits before we explore other options. So, we're going to say, what can Redtail do entirely and then make a list: hey, this is the things it doesn't do. We do need to upgrade. We do need to switch CRMs. But before we, you know, explore every nook and cranny of Redtail, I don't want to make that move, so we know exactly what we're looking for. But from an all-in-one solution, we do try to do what we can on the all-in-one solution. So for Orion, staying on that example, we use it for reporting, we use it for the client portal, trading, and even the meeting presentations - their new dashboarding tool is wonderful meeting - so we don't even - geez, I think we cut down our reporting, the PDFs we run for meetings - about 70% and we just run the live dashboard. So if a client asks – if they want to see their account since inception and not a rolling three-year or five-year, we just actually do it on the screen and it changes the numbers right there. And the advisors really like it because it's less paperwork and it gives them more talking points in the meeting. But what we're trying to do there is not saying Orion’s the best solution, but we're trying to consolidate them because it's the same look for the client. So they're getting used to similar reports, similar client portals, similar reporting software for the meeting - so it's all a very a familiar look for them. And same thing with our employees. And I first started, as we're training through ten systems, our feedback was - even to the interns, it's the most overwhelming part of the training, because you’ve got to learn these ten systems before we can even train you on anything else, because that's what we do every day. And we know, since we've been doing it for so long, well, we jump here for this, we jump here for that. But that gets really confusing for new training. So that's really been our goal in trying to consolidate that. So help for the clients and help for our employees. But another example is, you know, Orion falls short is their builds and integrating everything. All of these all-in-one solutions say they integrate with everybody, but I still have not yet to see that from any technology. There's always some shortfall there. You're like, oh, it doesn't do this, but it just feeds the account name. Super. I need all the data. So, just seeing with the CRM Redtail, we had to build our own dashboarding tool to show us - through a kind of a low dev model - to show us who's been met with, who needs to be met with in the last, next quarter. See, Redtail just doesn't simply do that. So we had to build that outside the system, which is why, you know, there's other intentions, why we're going to look at moving CRM systems and try to find what the next best thing is. And I know we're in a weird technology stage where something might be amazing - this right now - but next year might be something really different. So we're trying to hold tight and see how AI evolves and what that does for the CRM environment for us to not have to switch a couple times. 00:34:49 Matt Sonnen: Yeah, and I should throw out there this is not a knock on Orion - I love Orion. We're just using it as the example because both Giselle and Brent's firms use it. But just insert any technology vendor in our industry. It all sort of started out as this - hey, really touting the best-of-breed, and we'll talk to any of the systems out there. And then they've all gone on these buying sprees, and they're now all touting that we're the one solution that you need. So this is not a knock on Orion by any means. It's just a way to frame this conversation around best of. 00:35:21 Brent Lee: That's a good point. Yeah, we love Orion. We've been Orion users even before I started here. So yeah. 00:35:26 Matt Sonnen: Yeah. So yeah. And our listeners, whether you're using Orion or not, I'm sure you're nodding your head as you're listening to this conversation because we're all dealing with this right now. So, Giselle, how has Corvus approached this decision of getting the most out of your tech stack? 00:35:43 Giselle Crout: Yeah, technology, I think is so fascinating right now. It's one of the easiest places, too, for an organization to become really reactive, I think, instead of intentional. And every week there is absolutely a new platform promising to solve everything. You mentioned it earlier: those eight hours you're getting back. AI has just ramped that up so much. So I think, you know, I probably play the healthy skeptic. My CEO - I like to tell him: no shiny new things. And I think it's a really good balance. Actually, I tend to be the healthy skeptic. He gets excited about the possibility and it's a nice balance between the two. But the truth is technology is rarely the complete solution. I never believe what they say in demos. I like to talk to someone who's already using it just for the reasons Brent mentioned. And kind of like what you said earlier, Matt, and Brent, you touched on this. This year, Corvus is deliberately focused on getting more value from the technology we already have in place, rather than adding tool after tool. And right now, with the rapid expansion from all the different companies trying to be the answer, you know - whether they call themselves data lakes - or actually, I heard data lakehouse the other day, which made me laugh. They're all kind of overlapping and they're trying to become the solution again. So, I feel like at this point, what we're really doing is the same thing as Brent. We're really diving into what we already have, trying to make the most of it. So that means staying up with new releases, reviewing what comes out, which takes a fair amount of time to really dive into. We know that our technology may have overlaps from one to another just because, again, they're all expanding, but we're going to look at them, we're going to dig into them, we're going to see what works best for Corvus, and really, we're going to place the outcome that we're after first. And that's what's foremost in our mind. And then we look for the software that will support that. So, that's kind of how we think about it. We talk about that end goal and trying to be open to how we get there and really digging into what we have. That doesn't mean we will shy away from new technology if it's what we need. Absolutely not. It would be silly to kind of draw that line in the sand, but really evaluating and not making unnecessary changes as Brent mentioned. I had a mentor who once said, “plan the work and work the plan.” So that's kind of our approach this year to our technology. But she also, on the flip side said, “perfection is the enemy of progress.” So we're trying to also make sure we take steps forward as we evaluate. 00:38:49 Matt Sonnen: Yeah. Well, I'll tie this conversation back to what we were talking about earlier. And that's the importance of having an operations study group. Because how many times do two CEOs run into each other at a conference and they come back - one of them comes back to the office and says, I just talked to so-and-so and their firm implemented X, whatever that tech is, and it's saving them a bunch of time and everything's working great and then you need to be able to call the ops people at that firm and say, so how's it going? And they go, it's awful. So yeah - the tech vendors, like you said - don't always just take their word for it. And then also just even when you hear reference checks, sometimes the people that are giving the strong reference aren't the ones that have ever even logged into this specific system. So, backing it up with a good ops contact at that firm is always important. Well, the last topic I wanted to hit on - this episode isn't going to air until September, but we're recording this in the middle of the summer, and that means that both your firms are hosting interns right now. And I know both of you have been very intentional about your internship programs. And I want to talk about this because, in my opinion, so many RIAs completely blow it when it comes to interns. These young and talented students; they come in bright eyed and eager to work. And so many RIAs - I've just seen it over and over again - they have them spend the entire summer sitting in the corner, looking out the window, and occasionally they give them some contact information to update in the CRM. But then, before you know it, the summer is over and the interns haven't really learned a whole lot about our industry. The firm didn't really get a lot of value from these young workers, because the firm really just mismanaged the entire intern program. So, Giselle, I'll go to you first. Tell us what you've developed for your interns. 00:40:51 Giselle Crout: Absolutely. About five years ago, when we formed, we made a deliberate decision to invest in the next generation of the profession. That was absolutely intentional. We have, as you mentioned, the local college. And so we wanted to work with them, but we did not want an internship program that simply was a checkbox. Right? We didn't want to have interns because you're supposed to. We wanted it to be genuinely valuable for Corvus and for the students, and really to give them an idea of what it was like working for an RIA. So we kind of built out the program to address several different areas. We would let them shadow some of our just starting out financial planning associates or relationship managers, so they could see what the day-to-day rhythm was like. We gave them some operations work so they could understand how we prep and prepare for meetings. We - with our clients permission - had them attend some client meetings, and we also gave them opportunities to interview our advisors. And then finally, yeah, to your point, we did have them do some classic intern projects, but I always promised them that if they were going to be doing something like data cleanup or anything like that, I would always explain to them the bigger picture and why it was important to the firm so they could understand how that fit together. And early on, our feedback was really great from our interns. We had just a really great run of outstanding interns and they still keep in touch, actually. I will get messages from them, some of them will travel and we'll get postcards from overseas. So that's been really great. But about - I don't know, maybe a year or two ago - I was listening to a Michael Kitces podcast that kind of sparked our next evolution, and the idea was that they wanted to create that pipeline that Brent was referring to of potential employees. And the gentleman talking about it was saying that he needed interns to act like first years, and first years to act like third years. And at that time, I had been trying to accelerate kind of the development of newly hired relationship managers and how we would get them up to speed quicker. And it kind of became this moment where I was like, yeah, we need to be doing a little bit more in depth versus kind of the survey approach. And so we really were intentional, especially - I guess it was about a year ago - because this last year we've had four. We actually don't just have them during the summer; we have them year-round. And we had four interns over the last year, two of which just hired on with us. So that was very exciting. They are beginning full-time roles this summer with us, and they're already in our financial planning software. They're learning how to build plans there, you know, with supervision, all of the pieces. But that sort of intentionality around what they were working on really changed how they were prepared. And they were so excited to really get that visual of what their life would be like here at Corvus, should they join us. So personally, that was a big success for us, I think, to really make sure that we were so intentional in terms of giving them the work that would mirror what they would do once they joined us. And again, it's really paid off for these two that we just hired. 00:44:35 Matt Sonnen: I mean, I want to point out all the work you've put into this. I mean, this is one of those classic examples of - you get out of it what you put into it. I can just feel some of our listeners are listening to this thing - we had interns this summer, we didn't get anything out of it, like Giselle did. But you've been revising this for five years and you've really been thoughtful about it. And it isn't just - oh, we get some free labor for the summer and we'll figure it out when they get here. I mean, you really have to be prepared when the minute they walk in the door that you've got this program in place. So that's great. That's great. 00:45:05 Giselle Crout: Yeah. We have a whole system we have designed for them. We have a training to get them up and running, and we just make it better every year. But again, starting with the outcome we want, which is for them to basically function like a first year. It's really changed and improved our internship program. 00:45:26 Matt Sonnen: Great. Well, Brent, how have you ensured that your interns have had a productive experience? 00:45:33 Brent Lee: Yeah, that was well said, Giselle. But very similar. We - when Michael Dodds and I knew we wanted that growth path, we really had to think strategically about - what do we want to get out of it long term, and what can we provide to the interns that’s a useful experience and even, you know, a career path moving forward. So we wanted to - we really try to identify that first. And from an operations standpoint, my listeners will understand. But, you know, I had a mental block a couple of years ago that when we were trying to interview, even for full-time positions, it's so hard to find the right candidates, even through interviewing, because you really don't know how their work ethic is until they're in the seats. How are they learning the technology? How are they learning your procedures? And it was just so tough to try to actually get that out in an interview versus really seeing them through the test. So the internship is just so amazing from an employer side. We'll talk about that side first. You get to really see how those candidates are - just like you mentioned, Matt, they are eager; they're bright-eyed and ready to get to work and absorb all this information. It's so nice to see that kind of attitude towards, you know, any work environment there. And it's really been nice to see. So we get to really see how they're doing and how they kind of jump into the workplace and how they're learning things, how they're absorbing technology. And our biggest thing for their takeaway that we sat down was very similar to Giselle’s, is we want to make sure we're showing them exactly what this industry looks like. So if they - if we do an extended job offer, they know exactly what they're expecting. It's just going to be the same job with more responsibility. So, we really try - I think the interns are in client meetings within the first week. We do have two interns each summer and we rotate them through. And if the client is okay with it, just like Giselle said, they're in that meeting. So there's not typically a meeting that internships are not part of. And it makes them grow tremendously. They're part of the prep. They're taking notes. They're doing everything the advisor would do. And that's kind of our pitch to the interns. If they weren't there, the lead advisor would be doing that work. They're not - you know, they're not doing busy work. They're in there learning what the day-to-day looks like. So, through our exit interviews, we have - you know, we asked that: did we did we show you the industry? Do you feel comfortable with what the RIA side of the business looks like? And we've gotten good feedback on that. So we want to keep striving for that: giving those students the expectation of what it really looks like. So when we do offer - which we've had very successful offers through the internship program - they know everything. They know our culture, they know our technology. So when they start the following year, they're ready to go. We typically try to hire juniors going into their senior year. We found that to be just our best luck. Not that it's different other ways, but if they're a senior - sometimes I think I was the same way - sometimes you have a mindset as a senior to say, I’ve got to get a job after I graduate and not specifically looking for internships. We've kind of found that's our sweet spot, and they rotate through the advisors so they learn all the different lead advisor styles. So they're not partnered with one. They kind of have a weekly rotation so they can see one advisor may prep a little bit more. One advisor may remember more. And their notes might be more detailed or what it may be. And they kind of learn their own style that way. And we've had good luck with it as well. So we're going to keep that growth path going too. 00:49:03 Matt Sonnen: Well, Giselle and Brent, between the process changes, the tech stack decisions, and then this last one - how you're both running your internship programs - I think our listeners have walked away with a ton to think about. So thank you both for being here and sharing all of your experiences with us. 00:49:20 Brent Lee: Of course, we’re happy to do it. Thanks for having us. 00:49:23 Giselle Crout: Yeah, absolutely. 00:49:24 Matt Sonnen: Well, that is a wrap on Episode 90. We will talk to you all soon. © Coldstream. All rights reserved. May not be reproduced, republished, or distributed without prior written consent. Information drawn from third-party sources believed to be reliable but not guaranteed as to accuracy, timeliness, or completeness. None of the information provided constitutes an opinion or a recommendation or a solicitation of an offer to buy or sell any particular security. 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